Netherlands to Close Prisons: Not Enough Criminals
For years prohibitionists, including our own Drug Enforcement Administration, have claimed — falsely — that the tolerant marijuana policies of the Netherlands have made that nation a nest of crime and drug abuse. They may have trouble wrapping their little brains around this:
The Dutch government is getting ready to close eight prisons because they don’t have enough criminals to fill them. Officials attribute the shortage of prisoners to a declining crime rate.
Just for fun, let’s compare the Netherlands to California. With a population of 16.6 million, the Dutch prison population is about 12,000. With its population of 36.7 million, California should have a bit more than double the Dutch prison population. California’s actual prison population is 171,000.
So, whose drug policies are keeping the streets safer?
100 comments
Very interesting info, Bruce! One more argument out the window. Not that the DEA had a leg to stand on in the first place.
Very good Info.
Drug criminals would lose a huge slice of their cash flow if ordinary Americans were permitted to grow a little marijuana in their own back yards, say $100 for an annual permit for 12 plants.
I knew it. The stupid claim that decrim has somehow caused problems in the Netherlands really irritates me. Yes, the Netherlands has conservative jerks who like to create “moral” issues out of nothing just like we do here. They’d way rather bash pot smokers than discuss real issues, just like is done here with homosexuals. Yet, no matter how often the prohibitionists here talk about the Netherlands “problems” you’ll note that the Netherlands never really goes back to prohibition. I’m sure the people who staff those prisons wish they would though.
This is beautiful news just for the reason Arnold (Gov of CA) wants a debate and he is wanting to base the talks around these other legal countries. So in turn this one thing is going to make an amazing positive for us when if finally gets decided on.
Damn this is some real good information. Bruce you should talk about this next time you go on tv!!!
Im tellin u man prohibition dosent work!
Hey what do ya know! prohibition creates criminals! The bone haeds in washington don’t care as long as they keep thier power over Americans. If we repeal the 17th amendment, this would go alot faster. The problem is it would take 2/3rds the states and congress would have to “OK” it. PHH! You know they won’t vote to remove thier powers. Thats what its all about people, thier control over YOU! After all they wouldn’t be able to vote themselves nice raises all the time anymore. Keep up the pressure people, we’ll crack these NUTS.
The world ends December 21, 2012, according to the Myan Calendar any way. Time to release the non-violent pot smokers. Any questions?
Brilliant! This news couldn’t come at a better time, just as the prohibitionists sharpen their arguments and dust off their propaganda …
Let’s Vote this up to #1:
http://opengov.ideascale.com/akira/dtd/3191-4049
Just because the incarceration rate is lower does not mean the crime rate is lower. The Netherlands is notoriously soft on many forms of crime, and not just drugs (even violent crimes, like rape). It is the Dutch unwillingness to extensively jail dangerous criminals that is leading to their low incarceration rate, not a low crime rate. California’s higher ratio of prisons is only because America enforces its laws more effectively. Ultimately, this has little to do with drug policy.
Here are the Dutch crime rates:
http://www.nationmaster.com/red/country/nl-netherlands/cri-crime&all=1
Ok… Those are ARREST RATES, not crime rates. Once again, I think its obvious to anyone that America has a more effective police force than most European countries. Using arrest/incarceration rates, I could argue that the incidence of spousal rape has skyrocketed in the past 100 years, when in reality the only increases have been in arrests and convictions. This is basically your argument for Holland’s lower crime rate. Comparing America, with its effective enforcement of many crimes (some more fair than others) with the Netherlands, whose police are far more corrupt and far less efficient is unfair. Once again, this has very little to do with the disparities in drug laws between the countries.
@Rich,
Are youserious? Do you honestly think the Dutch just don’t bother putting criminals in prison? Let me guess, you are a white, home schooled, right wing christian evangilist…. i bet i have at least 3 of those 4 correct.
Remember this, the Netherlands is built up of all the same people. Its harder for a group of people to commit crimes against people just like them, then it is to commit crimes against people who arnt of the same background. If you look it up, Im willing to bet that the vast majority of the Netherlands are the same white, christian european. Now, if you take Cali, you will find Whites, blacks, Hispanics and Asians, all thrown in with each other. Race plays a factor in crime, if we like to admit it or not. Im not saying that one race commits more crimes then others, Im saying that when thrown in with each other, crime will be higher. Its just a sad fact. Also, not all crimes in Cali are drug related.
now lets see this come up in a debate
the fact of the matter is that the penalties for possesing, using, and growing cannabis are grossly inappropriate in the US. charles lynch, 5 year min equal to rape. that is not acceptable. the US justice system has gone wrong and maybe even corrupt. i think big money interest groups have swayed the justice system to a system for hire.
Lets hear from a Netherland citizen who is well informed and has first hand knowledge. Lets be careful not to believe the hype. Lets compare the statistics in all ways possiable, including breaking it down by race and age.
Well what do you know, a real life debate about ‘our’ drug policies (I’m dutch).
First of all, Michael, the dutch population is made of of just about any
race you could ever imagine. If you look at the history, the dutch have always
been global traders and as such we FOUNDED New York (yeah that’s right), went
to North and South America, Africa, Asia and Australia (did I leave any
continent out? If so we most likely went there too). So claiming that the
Netherlands is made up of white arian people is like denying the holocaust
ever happened: history begs to differ. If you followed the global news you
would see a trend in most European countries addressing the ‘immigration’
problem, i.e. the problem that Europe isn’t nearly as white as most
people want it to be.
Addressing the arrest issue. Rich seriously, if you think our police force
‘are far more corrupt and far less efficient’ you need to look up some numbers.
Without wanting to make you look like a moron, I just point to regular available
statistics found on the internet.
http://www.visionofhumanity.org/gpi/results/netherlands/2008/
http://www.visionofhumanity.org/gpi/results/united-states-of-america/2008
To give you a nudge in the right direction: it’s illegal to own guns here.
How many serious criminal activity do YOU think is possible if you don’t have
firearms? See how our death rate involving crime is significantly LOWER than
let’s say, the USA? I’m not
going to spell it out for you, but there is a connection… and don’t even get
me started about corruption. Clearly you just made that up without looking up ANY
statistics at all. If you followed the link, we score 9 out of 10, 10 being no
corruption at all. The USA scores 7.2. CLEARLY we are a corrupt nation! Also we
jail 1602 of every 100.000 people. America jails 5 of 100.000 people.
Yeah we really HATE putting people into jails.
To top it all off, let’s talk about legalizing drugs. Let’s call alcohol a drug.
Because it is. Now how many alcohol related shootouts do you know off. You know
some Hollywood scene where 2 parties meet in a backalley. One party has a suitcase
full of money, the other has a suitcase full of beer. Then all hell breaks lose.
How many times have you read about such a situation? Think about it, and you
might understand why we, in the Netherlands, have nearly no drug related problems. Well except for drugs tourism but hey, at least it stimulates the economy. Because ’soft’ drugs are legal, the step to ‘hard’ drugs is much more difficult: people don’t get in touch with the ‘criminal’ world, since they buy their ’soft’ drugs in shops.Shops don’t want to push ‘hard’ drugs since they will lose a customer. So they’ll steer you away. Plus because teenagers have it wildly available, it’s not ‘that’ interesting anymore. It’s not forbidden, so it’s like doing anything new: you do it once or twice, you don’t understand what the fuzz is about, and you stop doing it. Hence the number of teenage addicts in our country is very low compared to the rest of the world. Everyone tries it, grows out of it, and then just abandons it. Anyway there are ample studies done that legalizing drugs is the best way to combat drugs, so why are we even arguing this?
Obviously no one is going to read this, nor care, but I was here, I was bored so here are the views of one dutch citizen.
hey rich..let me ask you something…did you know that a person that is growing pot in the state of West Virginia (a state where if your caught with ANY amount of pot, its a slap on the wrist fine and walk, also, under 15 grams is NOTHING, you get let go) but if your found growing it, YOUR GOING TO PRISON!…and your going to prison for 1-5 years…do you know who else gets 1-5 years in some states? People that go out and take babies and rape them, sodomism them, and kill them. How many years in prison do you thinnk a person should get for taking your son/daughter and making them even hurt a tiny bit? I know I would kill the SOB. and that wouldnt be good enough..but 1-5 years for that according to our “laws”? Give me a break…IM NOT A RAPIST or a MURDERER or even someone that gets arrested. IM a Pot head.
Seems like all these “Activist Sites” are just a little slow, so from someone who doesn’t need poll data, here is the follow up of Sen. Cohen (TN) on Marijuana.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MC1HrrxSOuo&feature=channel
The prohibition of cannabis has been the greatest civil rights violation since slavery. All because of a lie initiated by one man: Harry Anslinger and perpetuated over 75 years by people who followed him blindly.
Bruce, is it? Here’s a tip for you. What is Circle Solutions, Inc. in McLean Va? Who in this company have veryvery very close ties to the Head of the ONDCP?
To law enforcement officials, the current state of the Drug War is a total Paradise to them. Unlimited money and power to subject and persecute a certain population into Prison where they can rot and die. Hey, wait a damn minute!!! This is what Adolph Hitler did to the Jews. Welcome to Amerika’s Fourth Reight!!! Our Government decrees that you are it!!! Habenzie Papers?
vetter, i refuse to believe we can’t turn this thing around and educate the public about cannabis facts. the public only knows the myths and lies spread by prohibition. i have to believe that once they see the truth, that cannabis has medicinal properties, and is virtually harmless when compared to tobacco and alcohol, they will help change the laws and end this tyranny against the american people. we are the people, thats what america is.
Ok, you got me on one thing: I am white (just like I’m sure most people are who frequent this board). However, I am a slightly left centrist who voted for Obama, went to public school, and follow no organized religion (do believe in God, though). Also, I DO support legalizing marijuana, I just don’t think this particular tidbit is related to the drug war. To be honest, I don’t think the Dutch model is one to be emulated: all of their wholesale marijuana sales are controlled by organized crime. Transferring their system to America would be like having the violent cartels sell to the shops. Honestly, I can’t think of a worse way to legalize marijuana than the way the Dutch did.
Finally some common sense. Did you know that America has 5% of the worlds population but 25% percent of the worlds population of incarcerated people?!?! This is not all due to marijuana prohibition but it shows we can improve. I am only 18 and I have been arrested twice for marijuana possession. Thank god MASS just decriminalized it to a 100$ Fine. We need other states to do the same thing
i think oaksterdam has a good model for leagalized cannabis
[...] It has widespread social implications as well.” Well if that’s true, then why are the Dutch closing eight prisons? This could be the reason: “The overcapacity is a result of the declining crime rate, which [...]
as a relative of corrupt law enforcement officials in Georgia,I can tell you that they don’t want ganja made legal,because it will affect their income.Prohibition is all about money and power on all levels,That is why,we may never see pot legalized.I hope I am wrong,but 35 years ago,I was thinking “any time now”.Still waiting and hoping in 2009.Keep up the good work!
this isn’t nazi germany, this is america. the police, the dea, the goverment work for us. we can change this thing around. look at the progress we’ve made.
Bruce Mirken how bout you learn how to right a fucking article you idiot.
This is a power struggle between the people of the usa and its government. the government knows if they lose this fight, we will change everthing they do…or is it undo everything they have done to strip us of freedom? This is a war between us and them.
repeal the 17th amendment..then we win.
William,maybe you need to learn how to spell!right?Not write.
“DarthNole: Let’s Vote this up to #1:
http://opengov.ideascale.com/akira/dtd/3191-4049”
*thumbs up*
It is the most effective and realistic vote on there.
“No one can try to defend cannabis being a schedule I substance without looking like a shmuck. The Obama administration (and in turn, the media) has to have their feet held to the fire and made to explain why they think cannabis has no medical value and is highly addictive.”
Jeroen, you wrote: “Obviously no one is going to read this, nor care, but I was here, I was bored so here are the views of one dutch citizen”.
Not true, I read every single word you wrote. Please do come here when you’re not bored, please do be a part of the discussion.
Hey, I don’t know if anyone posted this yet, but check out this link. http://www.cannabisculture.com/v2/content/under-radar-us-democrats-overseas-pass-marijuana-resolution
The us democrats of americans abroad passes this on Apr. 25 but no coverage??? I think there might be some seriously great things going on behind the scenes!!!!!
Oh… but those poor Prison Guards whom will now be forced to find some other line of work! Are there any jobs out there, anything available?
Maybe we should NOW relegalize and create some new employment and business opportunities!
Stop putting people behind bars for non-violent crime! Unless of course you are stealing millions of dollars or defrauding people and government! In which case, incarcerate them indefinitely!
Read the Nineth Amendent.
Rights not enumerated can not be construed as being denied.
I proclame for my fellow Americans and myself ….
The inalienable right of the people to control the chemistry, mind altering or not, of our own body. The right to engage in the voluntary commerce and share of any substance.
Just as prohibition of alcohol made the American mafias rich,
the insane drug laws have made South American gangs rich.
As a note of point, you can’t build a police state without an excuse.
Just as Hitler used the war on criminal Jews to build a police state,
America is using the war on drugs to build the police state.
Many of the slogans used in the war on drugs are identical to statements made by Hitler about Jews.
Do we really need 4 million Americans in prison? Dying of AIDS, TB, hepatitis, violence, old age? What any good Nazi would call “natural causes”.
Have you heard of “Death by Delusional Paranoia”, when a person is shot by a cop, the first thing the county coroner does is test the blood, if it test positive for “banned substances” the autopsy is stopped and the coroner writes Death by Delusional Paranoia. No mention of bullet holes in the body is recorded.
No investigation into the shooting is conducted because it is not a homicide, there are no records kept by any government agency including the FBI. Death by Delusional Paranoia means the person whose inalienable right to life was violated is off the books. The feds do not want us to know how many American have been murdered in the “War on Drugs” so they lie.
Well in a reasonable debate let’s also look at the other end of the spectrum. Not every country is the same, and every country has a distinct cultural and historical moral atmosphere regarding pot. Japan has arguably the toughest pot policies, and also has barely any pot smokers. Now, keep in mind they also have one of the highest rates of suicide, but still it sort of worked for them. Although I rabidly support drug legalization, to have a decent argument focusing purely on the Netherlands and it’s success doesn’t mean we would have the same success stateside.
kjgear:
Thank you for the comment… It always just seems weird to me that we as activists continue to ask for something that the administration is clearly against… Don’t get me wrong, I am 100% in favor of legalization, it’s just that I think I’m a little more realistic when it comes to the politics of the subject. Obama took the time to comment on our request at his online town hall meeting (even if we didn’t like his tone) he at least didn’t ignore it. So why aren’t we pushing for some common sense. Let’s go ahead and follow the laws as they are written. If it doesn’t belong in Schedule I, then let’s get it moved.
I just hope to hear the President stand up and explain to all of us how the Government can in one hand send medical marijuana out to a couple of US citizen every month, but on the other hand they say there are no medical uses. 13 states disagree and have ACCEPTED the use for medical treatment.
These forums have shown to work to be able to get our message in front of the President. I just hope that more people will come to their senses and realize that our Government is totally contridicting itself when it comes to Medical Marijuana.
C , Tell it to the Congress , yes they are the only ones who can repeal the Prohibition of Marijuana. Meanwhile organ transplants are denied to any deserving patient who dares have any metabolites of cannabis in their system , effectively sentencing them to death. I am a 50 year old Army Veteran who loves my country and it’s people. I am a legal Medical Cannabis Patient in California. (S.F. Bay Area)
We can and will win , because people’s lives are being destroyed.
I apologize that my whit is caustic at times. Over all I am hopeful. I get angry when I think of all the lies the people in control spout and for no good reason other than their greed and moral superiority, What kind of Moral Superiority is it that allows the sick and dying to suffer, and even be put in prison? These People are keeping segments of the underworld rich and harming US!!!! C, I lived in Augsburg Germany and went to Dachau Consentration Camp. Our officials are in danger, not from us citizens, but from the judgement from the Throne of Heaven. I know we have excellent leaders in Congress who are working to change this situation to a tolerable, sane, and humane one. I wish them success. I believe that I will be smoking a joint with Jesus before Marijuana becomes legal with restrictions as Alcohol and tobacco. If I am still alive at that time I will smoke some of the best Thai Bud that can be found. C, thanks for your optimism.
vetter,
thanks for serving this great country in our army. i my self served four years in the army.
our country works on the principle that we elect a person to represent our votes. i believe that cannabis is now approaching a majority and our leaders better start reflecting that or they will be replaced. we have the internet now, a tool that your generation didn’t have. the lies and propaganda that they spread in the 80’s and 90’s are quickly being debunked and the american people are smart. they won’t stand for this corrupt machine to bleed them dry of their capital or their freedom. look at your freedom under prop215. a result from people like all of us and organizations like mpp that fight. i myself will keep calmly debate as many people as i can to side with us. best of luck vetter
The representatives and elected officials in this country know very well that legalization works, They know the dutch policies work, We know it works….but in America, god forbid they would have to close down some prisons because of a declining crime rate. Our justice system has become nothing but a corporate industry….Land of the Free, Home of the Brave indeed.
Concerning Japan, I’m not sure I’d use their intollerance toward weed as a talking point. It’s becoming an ‘epodimic’ for the police force, and the people are starting to fight back.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/nov/03/japan
I was saddened to learn that the Dutch Coffee shop model is about to change to a club type model where only Dutch Citizens can pay to be a part of the Club, but none else. Well as a Medical Marijuana Patient in California, it is Basically the same way. As long as you have a Doctors recomendation you can gain entrance to the club. I went to Neimegan in Holland to take part in the 4 day walk. 25 miles a day ..In 7 and a half hours. I find the Dutch People to be very kind and peaceful and accepting of the differences of others!!! God bless the Dutch!!! Please forgive my misspelling of your fair city. I hope in the future that the dynamic of Legalized Marijuana will one day bring Millions of people from other countries to America to sample our freedom . But for now this is simply a dream for the future. I have got mine!!! Just like the Dutch have got Theirs!!! Now America it’s time to get your freedom!!! Politicians do you hear me!!! Soon the American People will be voting and then you will all get yours!!!!
Robert Vetter, comment #48. Unfortunately I don’t have the time to research everything and probably missed this if it was in the links in the article above.
Hope you read this comment and either explain or give a link to the Dutch Coffee shop model changing to a club type model where only Dutch Citizens can pay to be a part of the Club, but no one else.
BTW: My husband served 22 years in the Navy.
[...] [...]
Lea, the place to find the article is at the Norml Daily Audio Stash. Entitled Netherland turn up noses at Marijuana Turism. It’s 30 shops in the south of Holland. A Pilot program to help curb the rampant drug tourism from all adjacent countries. Part of a prohibitionist wave from the current administration. But Amsterdam will be much the same for awhile, but for how long? God Bless your Husband and You, for enduring a very hard life in the Military. At the clubs in the Bay Area, you normally go in wait in line , go to the counter order and split. There are a few that you can medicate in, but they are the exception and not the rule, like the old speak easies of the 30’s and 40’s Complete with the chance of being raided , how is that for an E ticket ride? It will get better, and then we can write our books about how we survived this terrible time in our History!!!
Thank you Robert.
We went to Amsterdam in January of 2008. We did hear that the Dutch were besides themselves with certain tourists and the tourists attitudes.
Guess this would be considered a pitiful side effect, an unnecessary one because it’s just as easy to be courteous and considerate as it is to be rude.
Lea, I was talking to a friend of mine who lived in Amsterdam for 5 to 10 years, and she told me that the real problem were the brits that have been raised mostly on alcohol and when they mix the two there is nothing more obnoxious than a drunk on weed. Talk about no inhibitions, with the nastiness of someone who does not care about anyone but themselves. My Dad was a mean drunk and I guess he did me a favor in showing me what not to be like. We made peace before the end and I forgave him, so much that for whatever reason Heaven let him visit me in my dreams a couple of times since. I now look forward to seeing him. My sister has never forgiven him and gets no visits. Life is strange, but wonderful. Americans , like the french , have a reputation to live down abroad , but if we take a chance, sometimes people surprise us. Have a great day!!!
This makes sense too. I live in Amsterdam so I see what’s going on here.
With the laws here it’s easier for people with problems to go out and have fun. Whether it is in a party or a coffee shop or concert, there is a scene to go for most people.
When people are out having fun, they do not have the time nor the will to go out and commit a crime that hurts someone in some form of physical, psychologically or financially.
True there are drug around here. But not everyone in a party here like drugs, some just would never do something like that. Others have taken drugs in their lives, but one day decided that it was enough. From the group of people that do use drugs, the vast majority does not abuse it, and only takes some drugs for entertainment. They know their limits.
However the people that are damaged to begin with are the likely ones to develop addictions and commit crimes if they can’t find comfort. If they do so, the Dutch do not like the idea of putting them in prison just like that.
First of all, a detainee cost money.
Secondly, the average convict comes out of prison more educated in crime, so is more likely to do something bad again.
I see here more and more that people who commit a crime have to do community work for a x amount of hours. They are economically helpful, and they stay away from more problems thay can make them worse. Only if the person is a threat for others, then the has to be locked up for other peoples sake.
In plants we trust…
I would like to add one more thing.
In the Netherlands we have controlled areas where prostitution is allowed (As long as there are no links with criminal organisations.)
Many religious people don’t agree with this because of something that is written in their book.
What their book does not mention how many innocent women and children are saved from sexual abuse because the sexually frustated have another option: Go to the prostitutes. Prostitutes are not innocent, they make their own choices.
I knew it was the Brits Robert, was just too chicken in the moment to type it here. Thanks for pointing it out.
We had a meeting with the police while we were in Amsterdam, and we got to meet a coffee shop / politician owner. The owner of the coffee shop was the one who shook his head and said the British were a problem. The police officer, IMO, seemed more tolerant of all the situations that could arise. He openly shared that he smokes pot when off duty too.
If you read this Sander Postma, thanks for commenting here. Everything you said is true, now if we could just get our backwards politicians in the U.S. to understand this.
I am dutch and I have seen first hand that the netherlands is a country that has it’s stuff together from socialized medicine to the tolerance of soft drugs. I think the United States should take a note or two from the flying dutchmen!
USA speculate in cheap prison labour
Hey, Come on!! I am a “brit” and I have visited Amsterdam many times, I am always polite and well behaved if a little wasted (I tend not to mix too much alcohol with my weed.
While there I have seen the rowdy stag parties which do seem to be of british origin, which is a little embarrassing to myself and other well behaved brits.
Also the police in Hollland get to do real police work instead of chasing around smokers and growers who haven’t caused any one any harm except maybe themselves. People who do have hard drug problems are offered help more readily and quickly than here in the U.K.
Before I go I would also like to point out that here in the U.K people who have genuine health problems and emergencies are dying while waiting for the emergency services who are too busy elsewhere in town patching up all the drunken people, Not stoners.
Then there’s the prosecutions of smokers and growers through our courts that cost our already bankrupt system hundreds of thousands of pounds every year.
I’m no scholar but it doesn’t make any sense to me.
NO VICTIM, NO CRIME!!
I agree with this policy, but does the reduced number of criminals simply reflect the fact that drug users are now NOT criminals? I would like to see an analysis of violent crime, or even better, non-drug related crime. If 80% of California criminals are in for petty drug crimes, then it seems that California’s prison population is not nearly as skewed.
[...] READ ENTIRE ARTICLE HERE [...]
Controlling Drugs
The great Prohibition era certainly should be lesson enough that prohibiting a thing only makes it more valuable and encourages crime to provide it. The main reason we have “drug crime” is prohibition of drugs. There is no control of the substance or distribution with prohibition. Drug cartel’s become the only distributer.
Control of a substance is accomplished by licensed distributers. Alcohol [now] requires licensed bars and bartenders. Abuse of alcohol has legal consequences. Pesticides and poisons are sold through licensed distributers. Pharmacies are licensed for Rx Drugs, many of which are far more severe than ‘recreational drugs’. With licensing quality can be monitored and restrictions can be placed on who can be provided the item, how much etc. Control can also be placed on use, types of use ie: medicinal, recreational, etc.
The hyped drug fear is terrorism [decisions made based on fear] to promote criminalization of drugs. We need to foster education to overcome this overreaction. Prohibition even prohibits hemp which would be a valuable crop for farmers, provides a natural resource for clothes, paper, packaging and many other uses.
Some of these prohibited drugs like marijuana have proven medication use in cancer, PTSD, glaucoma, many other health problems. Licensing would make these valuable medications available to those needing them. States set their own law on use and distribution according to their view.
I ask legislatures to sponsor elimination of prohibition type laws on drugs and write law to develop licensing mechanisms for all drugs including marijuana, LSD, opiates, all drugs. There have been many studies that this does not lead to a “gateway” for other use. Indeed as Netherlands has proven, it leads to reduction in crime and use of harsher drugs. http://tinyurl.com/ycx9vpz
“Comparing America, with its effective enforcement of many crimes (some more fair than others) with the Netherlands, whose police are far more corrupt and far less efficient is unfair.”
You have to be having a laugh… America, home of the slave and land of the fee. Utterly corrupt and the Nazi Police reflect this nicely, the biggest street gang in america…
http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=54162036
Seems that drugs are being the excuse for all criminal activity and the imprisoned. There are other crimes to commit you know.
I would bet the US has thousands upon thousands of more laws than the Netherlands, thus creating more criminals from simply dressing the wrong way to saying what you feel (remember free speech?).
America loves to throw people in jail.
Those who would be criminals will be so with or without drugs. Bums are bums and prosperous people prosper.
Thank you for a very interesting article. The US would have less crime with a more intelligent drug policy, but the corporations who buy our Congress members don’t want that, they want to continue the prison industry, they’re making too much money. And their bribes matter a whole lot more to most Congress members than our votes, or the mere lives of human beings who suffer because of their disastrous policies. I hold little hope for things to get better here, the corporations are happy with things just as they are.
It was actually predictable.
You might want to note that America has recently banned flavoured cigarettes and with obamacare, all cigarrettes as well as many sugary products like soda may be regulated or prohibitted.
Prostitution is another area of states prohibitting behaviour that should be ones own right as an adult.
America is no longer the land of the free!
Bruce
The netherlands are know as a ‘melting pot’. So the ‘race’ argument is not working here. When i look at the numbers of drug related arrests and jail terms in america vs. the netherlands everyone can see that the liberal drug policy DOES work. this case is very similar in switzerland as well, which also has very liberal drug laws. When you would release all drug related prisoners from the U.S, about 80% would go home. But this is not gonna happen in the U.S for quite a while. the lobbyists will make sure this is not gonna happen in the near future. The pharma, nylon, cotton, paper and prison industry will not tolerate any form of legalization. there is multiple empty prisons here in the U.S for certain reasons. Although the legalization of marijuana itself could earn the government more than a 100 billion dollars per year, they prefer to fight the drug of war which costs itself 20 billion and more. the us government supports american farmers with more than 25 billion dollars annually which could be saved, by allowing them to grow a certain percentage of their fields (regenerating fields only), bought by the government thru the DEA or ATF and sold to licensed distributors. to keep the price stable at its momentarily value at least a tax of 25% should be considered which accumulates (i only considered 50% of U.S consumption) to more than 60 billion per year. And this is actually divided in half. I know i am talking against a wall, because something like this is not going to happen soon.
When it gets approached correctly it is a trillion dollar business. paper, cars, fuel, plastic…
There is no limitations.
war on drugs i mean.
when i would run a private prison i would not like to have any kind of drugs legalized either, where am i gonna get my slave labor from then i almost don’t have to pay anything.
facility, manufacturing, training and prison gets paid by the government, so a private company can take the work load of their back. they got a billion dollar complex for free, full with slaves the have nothing to pay.
i want to go there now! and stay…here in texas crime is everywhere with the young ones as they slowly learn about getting jobs
[...] Korea ] [ Sharp Rise In Chinese Arrests At US Border ] [ The Murder Of JFK Jr - Ten Years Later ] [ Netherlands To Close Prisons - Not Enough Criminals ] Possibly related posts: (automatically generated)A real K-drama soapDragonaut The Resonance [...]
To start with back in the 90s Bill (slick willie ) Clinton also being a drug runner himself ,got the bright ideal that to tightiin pot laws increse jail time inturen would increase law enforcement and then create private prisons for profit to all be funneled to the RICH !! Now this is out of control our cops are out of control thanks to GW BUSH and DICKEY CHENNY and boy are they making a bundle !!! Because there is no longer any jobs that pay a living wage so people turn to selling drugs of all kinds if pot was legal and taxed just like bose our jail pop. would drop by 2/3? Also our drug parma s aren,t going to let this happen /because there are so many medical use for this plant it would kill there cancer drug ind. proven fact ! Cancer drugs and tretment is BILLIONs a year !!!! Don,t take my word check for your self at http://WWW.phoenixtears.CA——-and see how the gov,t won,t let you cure cancer !!! Go with god
I am Dutch and growing weed is just as illegal here as anywhere else. But the cops use a ’see throught the fingers policy’ when it comes to small amounds of marijuna. It is legal to sell weed in a coffeeshop, but it is illegal to supply a coffeeshop. That’s where the problem lies….the supplying of coffeeshops is an illegal criminal business with a lot of violence. That’s how stupid our law is.
About crime rate….a rapist walks free in Holland after 2 to 4 years or so. Even murder lets you walk out after let’s say 8 to 12 years.
Also, we use a lot of other punishments, like criminals have to do community work. They stay out of jail, but still have been sentenced. So…Rich is probably right in his comments. You should also know that buying a weapon here is very difficult as they are forbidden and nowhere for sale.
What i also want to comment is…our drug policy does work. Of all countries we have the least percentage of people who use it. It’s normal for most people to try it when they grow up….a lot of people smoke weed for a reasonable time. But whent they get older, get married , get kids etc they stop smoking weed 99 out of 100 times.
But since Ireland voted yes for the new EU law, the liberal policy will be over.
In response to Michael { 05.26.09 at 8:45 pm }
Remember this, the Netherlands is built up of all the same people. Its harder for a group of people to commit crimes against people just like them, then it is to commit crimes against people who arnt of the same background. If you look it up, Im willing to bet that the vast majority of the Netherlands are the same white, christian european.
Michael, if you are going to make a statement like that at least do a bit of research…Holland is an ex coloniser and trading country, therefore has probably the most mixed population in europe…i would advise you to try a bit of reading and travel. With your level of intelligence and education you should not post comments on blogs, you will only make yourself seem more stupid and more racist that you obviously are.
what a bloody moron.
and Rogier, are you blaming us irish now for the Lisbon Traty?
Blame Bruxelles, they did not like the results first time ansd scared everyone who still has a job into voting again. We had the option of voting unlike most other countries so look a bit closer to home before blaming ireland for the loss of liberal policies, blame the big european countries.
ps i lived in holland for 4 years and it is a fantastic country, not just for the obvious reasons…the only bit i did not like so much was the rude unfriendly dutch people, who by the way are becoming very right wing very fast…
No no Paul..not blaming the Irish at all. I can’t read anywhere that i blamed you.
They would’ve held as much referendums as needed until you lot said yes. Holland also said no, but we didn’t even get a 2nd vote.
ps. 160 nationalities live in Amsterdam alone. And Amsterdam has only 1 million people.
Although not dutch, I work in the netherlands occasionally, typically in Rotterdam. The Netherlands is a conservative country – quite a surprise given their drug laws. They have the lowest drug consumpton in europe. Its the sort of place where all the suburban gardens are neat and tidy.
Last time I was there with some colleagues after a great Indonesian meal, my oil industry hosts asked if we wanted to go to a bar for a drink. We said that we would rather go to a cannabis cafe and score. None of our hosts smoked dope – but thought nothing of looking up an iphone to find out where we should go and took us there. It was no more unusual to them than needing an ATM machine.
Its normal. Its not criminal. The cafe was a dump, but we got our blow. My business contacts do not think we are drug-crazed wierdo’s, but they DO know we won’t turn up at the office next day with a hangover.
Great country. SANE country.
FYI, the dutch arent ‘less effective’ — they’ve made the conscious decision to only put criminals that are a clear danger to society in prison. the rest pay fines or do house arrest.
whereas america puts many many non-violent offenders behind bars and that ultimately hardens them into real threats when they finally get out.
Sure it is lower, because all the drug addicts end up dead you happy idiot. OF course you forgot the Queen in the Netherlands saying a few years ago that Amsterdam was too unsafe to walk around after sundown. I wonder why she said that? Maybe you should walk down the street in South Central L.A., and see how long you survive just trying to buy some drugs if you are white.
Most Dutch are very law abiding citizens and do not take drugs. And of course your stats never mention illegal alien crime and gang warfare and what about guns? There are no guns in The Netherlands. You think legal drugs will make gangsters in California put down their drugs? You need to up the dose on your medication.
What an amazing concept! Decriminalize leads to less criminals!!!
Now if we could only populate California with Dutchmen (or Dutchpersons)!
I always wonder why seldom politicians are not constantly forced to tell citizens why it is any business of the govt to say why pot and LSD used in a controlled environment …as in your own house are any more dangerous than any of a thousand legal drugs out there which the govt permits. AND As if the Govt actually gave a rats ass about anyone anyway really.
I was in the Netherlands (Amsterdam) back in1989. I can tell you that the general population is well mannered and dressed. Healthy and smiling would describe the general population. No where did I see any “large box stores”. If you needed cheese you went to the cheese store, wine the wine shoppe and so on. The streets where clean as are the cities I visited. Grass and hash where cheap, good and plentiful in almost and coffee house or cafe. The two weeks I spent where some of the most enjoyable I’ve ever spent….. I almost hated to come back here.
I honestly believe that if it isn’t broke, why fix it. Obviously the Netherlands have found a way to keep crime down and morality and humanity high. Not just High as in smoke either. Perhaps the rest of the world could learn a few things from these decent people and stop trying to knock them just because they allow marijuana use. There are many there who have never and will never try it, just like the rest of the world. They also have very beautiful landscapes, seascapes and cities as well as country sides. The rest of the world should stop and take notice of their declining crime rate and then look at their own. God Bless and take care of each other and yourselves.
Jerome Dank u val
Robert please dont slag off the British, as Europeans we have lot in common with the people of Holland. More so than USA. Im sorry your Dad was a mean drunk. Thats not nice. But dont make assumptions on a few roudy Brits. or project your issues on us. Surely this is not the place for bitchin. Anyway Ive said my piece now Goodnight 
[...] Now here’s a (semi) mass event I like: Netherlands to Close Prisons: Not Enough Criminals [...]
Very interesting thread with a lot of interesting input from various sources… As a travelling person currently in Switzerland but living for the past 20 years in South Africa, I have lived in London, Switzerland, Italy, Germany (none of these longer than 6 months) and plan on many more.
It is unfortunate that the British youth (not all British) frighten the vast majority of tourist hotspots and give the old school image of “British Politeness” a bad knocking. When I lived in London I was scared to look the youth in the eyes. I’ve been stabbed and shot at in South Africa, but they wanted something, British kids often need no excuse to start something.
According to British Foreign Office data, 16- to 20-year olds represent a third of all Britons visiting Greece (a popular tourist hotspot for all EU nationals), but account for more than 70 per cent of Britain’s annual 800-900 consular cases there. (from theage.com.au)
Theordoros Pakos, a senior police officer on Crete. “A lot of people here are really tired of the way drunken Englishmen comport themselves.” (tribute.ie)
And Cliff, do you think the Queen would feel safe walking anywhere?? She is an 83 year old woman bloody hell!! I wouldn’t want my granny walking alone in any big city after sunset!!!
The Dutch are generally a very conservative society and well, I have great respect for them for managing to balance such an issue that clearly puts alot of fear into peoples minds (wether real or imagined) and well, government is meant to regulate NOT control.
No price is to high for freedom, as Benjamin Franklin once said “Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.” And what do we see happening now in the once great United States of America?
Jeroen: I don’t know how many times I have to spell this out for people like you, but the lack of guns in your country has little to do with your crime rate, just as our having guns in the US has little to do with our crime rate. In almost every case, where there are guns, crime tends to be lower, not the opposite. In fact, when Australia banned guns, there was a boost *up* in crime, and the overall effect towards reducing crime was nill (http://www.gunsandcrime.org/auresult.html). The plain fact is, an armed citizenry is the best thing.
FYI: here in Chicago we recently had a death of an inner city student, and the idiots like Mayor Daily & the like don’t know how to handle it or who to blame because there was NO GUN involved – he was beaten to death with lumber. What will they do now, ban wood????
If marijuana was legal then hemp would be legal.If hemp was legal there would be a manufacturing boom with hemp lumber,cements,food products,textiles,fuels,plastics etc. It would be a renewable very green crop every 90 days in some areas and would provide unlimited material resources that require little or no maintenence and very little to produce.Now…who makes all the afforementioned products but the scum of the earth and many are invested in the private prison industry.If marijuana were legal hemp would have to be also,and the sociopath parasite ruling class will not allow that.Case closed.Marijuana is a good excuse to keep the real earth freindly cash crop…why,someone might smoke it and the whole world would just go to hell ! Haha
This is an interesting story.
I suspect the reduced crime rate in the Netherlands is due more to the fact that it’s a highly socialist country, (much more so than in the USA) and when times are hard, Netherlanders have more options than turning to crime for food, clothing, and shelter.
BTW: it would be nice if there was an “email this story to” option somewhere on this page..
For those who’ve commented negatively regarding Dutch crime: Two years ago my lady and I stayed in Amsterdam for a week. We rented an apartment in a non-touristy neighborhood to get the flavor of genuine Dutch living. The landlord was an attractive twenty-something Irish ex-pat who required the rent be paid up front and in cash, some 700 euros. When I questioned her safety in holding that amount of currency alone in public, she actually laughed in my face. In fact, she said, “I ride my bicycle quite alone, all over Amsterdam every day at all hours including late night after bar visits. I’m perfectly safe!” If ANYONE would feel secure in having their good-looking wives-sisters-nieces-female friends out and about on a bicycle all alone at three am, ANYWHERE in the US, well, you haven’t been paying attention to life here. I wouldn’t even trust cops’ intentions regarding such a young lady. I’ll take the Dutch version any day.
put people in jail for smoking pot is like put in jail people who smokes tobaco. now both are a long lethal drugs, that destroyed your brain, lungs, liver, tonsils and give you different kind of cancers.
You know i am british and i very much love to smoke weed and find it hurtful that people would like to brand british people as the trouble makers in any soceity. Let us not forget that most of you people are actually of british descent. I know people who went to the dam and had trouble brought on them by some dutch lads,this is not because we are a bunch of thugs, its because the scum thought they had some easy pickings (they were wrong). Every soceity has their bad element but i can guarantee that our bad element are not the weed smokers who go to amsterdam to get high for a fews days and chill. I know i would rather live in england any day than live in an american soceity where everyone can have a gun and therefor go out and shoot someone who pisses them off!!!
I know i have missed the point of this discussion but dont start attacking british people without looking back at your own people first..
“People in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones”
Interesting…but in the USA there are more reasons for having more prisoners: It is cheap slave- labour and for the owners and operators of USA-prisons of which many are private corporations therefore a booming business! As the US-government itself is involved in the drug-business – the CIA was doing it (and of course the fact that they have to provide for themselves, and are not payed by federal taxes, so obviously they are making money big time in the drug business..hence the war in Afghanistan: To make sure the Bush-family do not loose their control of their share of the drugs produced there), now it seems NATO took over… all of this is all about money! Billions of US-dollars. One major reason to keep drugs illegal is that those involved in the illegal drug-trade (politicans, CIA etc.) make far more money this way! And of course it is one excuse to make prisoners. Which translates in cheap labour, which is big money for the American private owners of prisons!
Also you will not have prisoners if you just tolerate all kinds of evil.
Thirdly: The Dutch authorities had built far too many prisons only recently. It is bad planning on the part of the Netherlands government.
Fourthly: The sentences are far too low. And many people who would normally be in prison now can sit at home, only restricted to their home, by a bracelet or device around their enkels that warns the prison authorities when they corss the boundary of their home. This was invented because there was until recently a shortage of prisons. So, as is usual of the Netherlands – government, after they have closed the prisons, it will not be long before they have a shortage again.
Fifthly: Some Russian made a movie some years ago about a Russian who had heard of the terrific conditions in the Dutch prisons: That they were like hotels. So he tried to Dutch police to arrest him, by doing bad things. But the Dutch police were just too nice: They forgave him for being a foreigner who did not know any better; they were helpfull to show him the proper way of doing things, and so he did not get arrested. In the USA he would have been arrested many times over and imprisoned: It’s cheap labor, as I said. I would have liked to see that movie, but I do not know the titel and have no idea where to find it.
By the way: I am from the Netherlands!
@ Reality: I agree with your response to the Dutch-Jeroen about guncontrol! He is one who has been brainwashed about gun-control. It is a God-given human right to own and use guns and any weapon in self-defense. Anti-gun-laws do NOT prevent criminals from possessing and using them, but they dó forbid law-abiding decent citizens to defend themselevs against the criminals, especially a tyrannical government! Anti-gun laws serve tyrannical governments! This is the ONLY reason to fobid them. Look at history, One of the first things Hitler did when he came to power was to forbid guns! Other dictators did the same.
I am appaled at the lack of professionality of the American police: Tasing an old lady, and a student!
Watch this video: Unedited Dash Cam Footage of 72 year old Grandmother Being Tased http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBtxNxCRjOI
DutchLionFrans (5 seconden geleden) – My comment:
This is VERY UNPROFESSIONAL BEHAVIOR BY THE POLICE- even worse: of his sergeant who backs him up. I would have both put on non-active duty to investigate if these arrogant, unprofessional dictators (that are supposed and payed by the public to be servants of the public!) that police nowadays seem to have become, should be taken off of the force! To let a speeding charge, which is a minor -fellany if that, get so out of hand, is unprofessional and the public deserves to be kept free from such individuals. I would also check the whole precinct for lack of professionalism and for a public-hostile culture!
Some more on this video: Video Released of Grandmother Being Tased for… speeding… http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LvBYoSst9rQ
DutchLionFrans (5 seconden geleden)
To let a speeding charge get so out of hand is UNPROFESSIONAL! And the public deserves to kept free from such power-abusive, dictatorial unprofessional police who act as if they think they are God and should be treated as God! I would put both him and his seargent on non-active duty pending a thorough investigation into the professionalism of the force and the whole precint!
DutchLionFrans (4 minuten geleden)
If this is policy as the sergeant says, than it is time to investigate the public-unfriendly culture in the police force!
Watch the video: University of Florida student Tasered at Kerry forum http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFdAMlLMZr8
My comments: DutchLionFrans (8 seconden geleden) These police are absolutely NUTS! This is so incredibly unprofessional! The young man asked a legitimate question, and the dombo gorilla police who have cereals for brains apperently, tased the young man, laying on him 10 men strong (this is abolute POLICE-BRUTALITY!) ! The police should ALL BE ARRESTED and put out of the police force! WHAT IS ABOLUTELY ASTONISHING TO ME IS THE FACT THAT THE PUBLIC BEHAVED LIKE DUMM SLAVERISH SHEEP! Not one student came to the help! And the speakers: CRIMINALS!
Rai: You are perfect material for the NWO- police State. These police here are absolutely NUTS! They have cereals for brains! The taser use is UNPROFESSIONAL…and cowardly of the unprofessional police – they sit on him – he is going nowehere and these criminal police tase the young men several times. They should be arrested for it and thrown out of the force!
I’ve just spent a very pleasant three weeks in Holland visiting my cousins. Both male and female cousins think nothing of walking or bicycling from one end of Amsterdam to another late at night, by themselves. People feel completely safe. Concerns about crime boil down to “watch out for pickpockets.” Holland appears to be a thoroughly civilized, comfortable, prosperous, and tolerant place.
This is exactly the opposite in England.
Over in Holland you decriminalise many non -violent and silly laws.
Where in England they make new laws to criminilise people as the Council and Government are to lazy to do the job , so just create more criminals by new petty laws to eliminate any opposition
Bruce should be a poster boy for why we shouldn’t legalize dope in CA. His brain obviously needs a break from it. If there are no laws and everything has been legalized, of course there would be less criminals because you have less laws to enforce! Are you fucking brain dead. My 1st grader could have figured this one out.
dutchlionfrans that was a very random and lengthy response. It is very important when attempting to make a point, that you don’t bore the reader. By the time I finished reading your response, I had forgotten what the topic was.
The fact is, here in the U.S. we spend 20 billion dollars a year enforcing drug laws that do absolutely nothing to stop the production, distribution, or consumption of ANY DRUG (legal or illegal).
Our prisons are filled with people who have been convicted of minor drug possession. We pay to find these people, we pay to prosecute these people, we pay to house and feed these people, and when they get out of prison and no one will give them a decent job because of their record, we pay them directly through welfare.
The main problem is the way we catogorize drugs. In most states, heroine users are subject to the same punishment as marijuana users.
Clearly the legalization of all drugs is not the answer. However, reclassifying drugs so that the punishment for a drug offense is relative to the ACTUAL damage that can be done to the society in which it occurs, would relieve much of the strain that has been put upon our prisons and legal system as a whole.
I did not read all posts, but there are few comments posted that are completely wrong – I am Dutch, grew up there.
One is that someone called the police force corrupt. Not more than in any other country, to be honest I haven’t run into one. And I had quite a few friends with the police. Would like a to see something to back up that the police force in NL is more corrupt than in the US, I would bet its more likely to be the other way around.
Then the comment that the Dutch are all the same people, not really. There are many many people from all over the world, all races are there, NL used to have many colonies and used to be in the slave trade, we still have a few colonies and there are many many asylum seekers and workers from other area’s in this world in NL now. Its a very multi cultural country, its hard to find an all white area, village, school or classroom. I think the tolerance and letting others do their own thing has more to do with it than less different people.
Leave a Comment